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Macedonia, Greece: An HRW Report

Say: Macedonia links to a report by the Human Rights Watch on the Macedonians of Greece.

69 comments

  • I can find some explanation when radical nationalists in Greece deny the existence of an entire ethnic group. But when this ethnic genocide is performed by the complete administration, from highest to lowest level, with a strong public and political support, then this is an indicator that something has gone terribly wrong in this NATO and EU member country.

    It doesn’t bother me that this situation with the basic human rights goes on forever, but it bother me that nobody cares to do anything more than words, which Greece either ignores, or forgets to put the words into action.

    • Greek

      You’ll find your explanation when Greeks can find some explanation why all the patronizing Greek hating bigots that ridiculously called obvious slavs “ethnic” Macedonians — play pretend not to notice their attempts to usurp Greek history and narrate Greeks out of ethnic existence.

  • Hans

    Sorry, but your post makes no sense:
    Roughly 25% of the greek population calls itself macedonian, but do not wish to be associated with you. The report you quote is also unintelligent, because it takes your position that the word macedonian refers to you, which it does not exclusively. The hard facts are that election results, which are free in greece and do not involve any shootings or kalashnikof-wielding people in the streets, do not show the presence of any such minority. If there is such a minority, first, it is not your job to speak for them, they can have a voice. Next, Greece would not have any problem recognizing such a minority, should that
    minority exist with a proper name. Which is another reason for adopting a name such as Slavoalbanian macedonia, which will distinguish yourelf from greek macedonians. If in greece somebody wants to try and represent “macedonians”, he can be rightly sued by any greek macedonian who can say “wait, you cannot represent me without asking me!”
    Even if such a minority would win such a case in court, which would be highly illogical and improbable, it would be simple for greek macedonians to join these organizations in mass on the grounds that they are macedonian and nobody can deny them the right to call themselves macedonian, then voting that the only macedonians are greek macedonians. So, the whole thing is incredibly stupid. If anyone in slav macedonia is interested in helping such a hypothetical or not minority, the best they can do is pick a name that will allow them to distinguish themselves from greek macedonians

  • kojoti

    HUH

    i would like you to explain me when Greek macedonians start to call them self Greek macedonians?

    So if we have macedonians on north pole we suppose to call them eskimo macedonians?

    I can not understand how you can be Greek and Macedonian in same time.

    Is the same like you say i am female and i am male(Only if you are not gay than situation is different).

    No matter what you say macedonians will stay macedonians

    my father and my grandfather was macedonian and their relatives before them.

    And EU and NATO?

    Who care about EU and NATO……………

  • Stefan

    Hans, you are the same guy who stood by while 6 million people were exterminated by the nazi, and did nothing…History condemned the nazi, and it will do the same to greece over their treatment of Macedonians!!

  • Mary

    We always call ourselfs Macedonians. We’re Greeks and we live in Macedonia which is in Greece. In the same way Cretans are Greeks and live in Crete which is in Greece
    ok?

    It’s a tragic fairytale for kids in FYROM that we never call ourselfs Macedonians.
    But we don’t know you, you’re not like us, you’ re something else, I don’t know what you are

  • tom

    Well, kojoti
    the greek inhabitants of Macedonia have always called themselves Macedonians, since before Alexander’s times.
    Inhabitants of Crete have always called themselves Cretans,
    ihnabitants of Scotland have called themselves Scots,
    inhabitants of Sicily Sicilians and so on. Can you be both
    Sicilian and Italian? Of course! Can you be both greek and Cretan? Of course! Can you be both greek and macedonian? Of course!
    Just like you identify yourself as you wish does not give you the right to forbid greek macedonians
    to identify themselves as they wish. In their case
    they have a much stronger historical claim to the region(i.e. they were there first), are more numerous than you and have a larger part(over 50%) of geographical
    Macedonia. Nevertheless, since you have also been in the
    region for many centuries, the greek macedonians understand that you may also be macedonians. But no way
    you can claim the name exclusively, as you imply.
    Your grandparents may be macedonians, but so are the grandparents of many greek macedonians. They will not like you telling them what they are!

    To give you an analogy, suppose the EU develops into one country, with one government, like Italy. Does that mean that another country, say Tunisia, can call itself Italy?

    As for Stefan, what exactly was the bad treatment (slav) Macedonians received from Greece?
    -That the bulgarians/slavs took a part of their land and massacred many greek macedonians when they arrived and during the time they were there?
    -the assassination by the VMRO of members of pro-Greek and pro-Serbian parties and the atrocities of Bulgarian guerrilla troops against locals who considered themselves as Greeks ?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Struggle_for_Macedonia
    -that they were given a choice to stay in whatever country they felt they belonged during the population exchanges?

  • Stefan

    Hans, as you need to ask what that treatment was about, still reinforces my thought as you being the guy who stood by and watched…

  • There is an answer that given from Phaedon John Kozyris and publish in the Journal of Modern Greek Studies (Volume 14, Number 2, October 1996, pp. 358-361).

    Here is the conclusion….

    [IN CONCLUSION, THE REPORT, HOWEVER WELL INTENTIONED, BREATHES RAREFIED AIR. ACCEPTING OR PROPAGATING THE FYROM-MACEDONIAN VOCABULARY AND STATISTICS, OUTSIDE TIME, SPACE, AND CONTEXT, NOT DISTINGUISHING BETWEEN CULTURAL REPRESSION, ON THE ONE HAND, AND DEFENSE AGAINST SUBVERSION OF TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY, ON THE OTHER, IT HAS SOME VALUE BUT ONLY IN AN EYEWITNESS, CANDID-CAMERA, RAW-NEWS KIND OF WAY. Incidentally, for those purposes the United States State Department’s annual reports are more carefully drawn and more informative.

    This is not to say that everything Greece does is totally proper. But it does say that Greece, which has walked the mile of liberalization, should not be criticized on the basis of exaggerated reports and, more importantly, without taking into consideration its legitimate concerns. Before we conclude that Greece has overreacted to a particular threat, the risk must be evaluated according to its magnitude and probability, especially in light of recent history. The same standard should apply to other situations nearby.

    For example, it would seem that currently there is some legitimate reason for concern about the aspirations and activities of Albanians in Kossovo, of Greeks in Albania, of Kurds in Turkey, of some Muslims in Greece but not of Greeks in Istanbul, and not of Vlachs and Gypsies anywhere. In other words, it is a fact of life that human rights for minorities sometimes come into conflict with the majorities’ commitment to preserve the national state, and that international law requires only some sort of balance and accommodation.

    THUS, THE CONCLUSIONS AND RECOMMENDATIONS OF THE HELSINKI HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH REPORT SHOULD BE TAKEN WITH MANY GRAINS OF SALT.]

    you can read all the article (and his arguments) in the below link….

    http://modern-macedonian-history.blogspot.com/2008/06/denying-ethnic-identity-macedonians-of.html

  • Jennifer Shoenhoffer

    As i understand it, there is a region of Macedonia which overlaps into three countries. More than half of this region lies in Greece. There fore, none of the three countries has the right to monopolise the word ‘Macedonia’. I think this issue could possibly be resolved by prefixing with the ethnicity of each country. The Macedonian region in greece would become “Greek Macedonia”, the Macedonian region in Fyrom would become “SlavoAlbanian Macedonia” and Macedonian region in Bulgaria would become “Bulgarian Macedonia”. I think this would be the fairest and most equitable solution. I think nationalists on both sides need to compromise because the issue will become increasingly intractable and a problem within the EU.

    • Greek

      That’s not entirely accurate. The former Yugoslavians intentionally confuse modern place names with ancient ones The Kingdom of Macedonia (as in where Alexander was from) is located essentially entirely in Greece. Calling the former Yugoslavia “Macedonia” is like Calling western France “England”. For the ignorant — and for anti-Greek bigots that use the former Yugoslavia as a proxy against Greeks..

      The fact is the former Yugoslavians clearly manipulate the name to insinuate that Macedonia Greece is part of an “occupied” whole. This is clearly morally unacceptable — as are all the evasions by the smug Greek hating bigots that pretend not to notice their attempts to narrate Greeks out of ethnic existence.

  • Jon Briscombe

    In Western education, we have always been taught that the ancient Macedonian culture is Greek in nature. The Macedonian region shows evidence of Greek culture spanning three millenia.
    Therefore, FYROM, a country which is only a few decades old, has no right to claim the name “Macedonia” as it’s own. We have all been inspired by the grandeur that was ancient Greece and now a newly-founded country (F.Y.R.O.M) is attempting to hijack the glory of ancient Greece. For this reason, i fully support the Greeks in this matter. I’m sure all of Europe feels the same way.

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