When the Olympic torch relay approaches China, Mo Yang saw how the “protection” for this torch relay provided by oversea Chinese hurts China.
这次奥运火炬全球传递基本上是被中国的海外愤青给搞砸了[…]。圣火传递开始阶段，在伦敦和巴黎藏独分子出来破坏，抢夺火炬，阻挠传递的进行。这个时候，理亏的是藏独分子。[…]如果我们能够保持冷静，采取克制[…]，继续按部就班地进行传递接力，把藏独破坏问题完全交给各国警察来处理，那么，[…]各国人民会说：“噢，看来，中国人确实是一心一意要办 好奥运会的，确实是把体育和政治分开的。”[…]但是，不知从哪里跳出来一大堆海外“爱国华人”，[…]反而给中国的形象带来了负面影响。
This torch relay around the world was sabotaged by those “patriotic” oversea Chinese. In the beginning when the torch was relayed in London and Paris, the people supporting Tibet tried to get the torch and stop the relay. At that time, those people did not have good excuse for what they did.[…] If we could keep calm, be composed, […] and let the relay be what it should be—let the police in other countries take care of those protestants–people all over the world would say, “well, we can see Chinese really want to hold a successful Olympic Game, and they do not mix athletics and politics together.”[…] However, these “patriotic Chinese” in other countries showed up out of no where,[…] and they brought negative influence to China's image.
Wan-Er-Bu-Liou-Mang-Gan-Ga analyzed why there are so many angry “patriots”:
这段时间的一系列事件，为什么会激起中国那么多人的愤怒？固然，事件本身没办法不让我们愤怒。但我总觉得这里面有不少是盲目，是被煽动起来的，或者有些愤怒只是冲着事件的本身，而忽略了探析事件背后的一系列复杂的原因。简洁点说：因为我们以往的印象中国是和谐的，是他国的形象中是美好的，当这突如其来的一系列事件，让我们知道其实并不是完美的，形成了巨大的心理落差，愤怒的声音愈加得强烈。
Why do events occurred these days make so many Chinese angry? Well, the events do make us angry. However, I feel there is blindness in the anger, which is stirred up. On the other hand, the anger only points at these events but ignores the complicate background behind these events. Let me put it simple: Our impression of China is harmonic, and we think foreigners have good impression on us. When these events occurred, we found not everything is as perfect as we think, and this cognitive conflict makes our anger more furious.
On the other hand, Hua-Bin Jing argued if doing these anti-boycott activities is patriotic, not everyone can be this kind of patriotic:
有网友说‘既为奥运会捐款，还为海外势力抵制奥运会而大声疾呼；这样的人不爱国，难道是那些无动于衷的人爱国’。
Some people said, ‘if a person donates money to the Olympic Game in Beijing and confronts the boycott to the Olympic game in other countries, how can we say this person is not patriotic? Would you say the people who do not care patriotic?’
如此说来，腐败分子的确比我们下岗人员爱国；因为我们下岗人既没有钱捐，也没有时间来参加活动。是啊！我们机关事业单位的人参加游行抗议，国家还给他们钱；而我们下岗人员参加游行抗议，却不知谁给我们工资。
If this is how we define a patriot, those corrupt people are more patriotic than us, who are laid off. We do not have money to donate, and we do not have time to join these activities. Well, the government paid people working in institutions money if they joined these protests, but we do not know who would pay us if we joined these protests.
腐败分子，是指那些贪污受贿、生活腐化、以权谋私、侵吞国家或集体财产等的人。
Corrupt people means people who are corrupt in the government and in their own lives. They embezzle the money of our country, which is we people's property.
同样是祖国的儿女，也有亲疏贵贱之分；看我们的高管，[…]年薪6000多万。而老百姓[…]收入也不到他的六千分之一；也就是说 我们的高管一年，相当于老百姓的6000年。祖国这样爱他们，他们能不爱国吗；因为他们并不是公平竞争的结果，[…]你比他们能力强，祖国只爱他们而不爱你；你有什么办法呢。
We are all sons and daughters of our country, but we are treated differently. Look at the elite:[…] their salary is more than sixty millions RMB. However, the average salary of us is less than their 1/6000. In other words, an year for them is 6000 years for a common person. Our country loves them so much, so how can they not love this country?–They become elite not from fair competition.[…] Maybe your ability is better than theirs, but the country still loves them more. What can you do?
这爱国是遗传的，下岗人员没有能力爱国；他们的子女同样也没有能力爱国。看我们的下岗人员的子女，不是因为没有钱上大学而过早地为生活奔波；就是因为贷款读书而背包袱。
As a result, patriotism is inherited. We people without job cannot be patriotic, and our children are not able to be, either. Look at our children, they either work when they are very young because they do not have money to attend colleges or live very hard because of the loan.
Da-Da-De-You discussed how to define the target for patriotism,
如果国只是民族的、文化的概念，则腐败分子是不爱国的，它们只是卖国贼。如果“国”即政权，当然，它们就是最爱国的一群人，因为正是这样的国给了它们腐败的机会。
If the target is ethnicity- or culture-based concept, those corrupt people are not patriotic. Instead, they sell our country. If the target is the government, the ruling party, of course, they are the most patriotic, because this government gives them opportunity to be corrupt.
Feng-Yen-Feng-You said those “patriots” oversea are traitors:
那些闹得最欢的海外”爱国人士”，[…]他们真要爱国，就应该废掉他们洋国公民身份，撕碎绿卡，回国来。按他们爱国的标准，他们中有的人是双重的背叛：先是背叛了生养他的祖国，投奔了被他们所视为的”敌国”；然后又背叛了他们所属的洋国，声称爱他们所属的洋国的”敌国”。
Those oversea “patriots” acted too furious.[…] If they really love our country, they should void their identity as foreigners, rip their green cards, and come back China. Based on their standard of patriotism, some of them are traitors to two countries: they betrayed their motherland to be citizens in a country they viewed as “enemy,” and they betray those countries and claim they belong to the “enemy” of those countries.
Touch123456 also argued what a patriot should do,
反腐败才是真正的爱国, 因为他们这群混蛋正在从人民身上喝血。
Anti-corrupt is what a patriot should do, because those corrupt assholes are sucking our blood.
You-Ren Li said the correct way to patriotism is to study the history and to find a way to build a new country.
作为一个爱国青年，要知道怎么爱国，首要的便是了解这个国家的历史。[…]知道历史的细节，便明了这个国家真正需要个体做的是什么。 […]“五四”的传统不是“破坏”，而是反省之后重建，反省历史，反省传统，创造一个经济、制度、文化、科技、人性上都崭新的国家。
Being a young patriot, the first thing we should do is studying this country's history if we want to know how to be patriotic.[…] If we know history, we know what we really need to do for this country.[…] The tradition of
May Fourth Movement is not to destroy but to create after reflection. Reflecting the history and tradition, and we can build a new country, economically, systematically, culturally, technologically, and humanistically.
97 comments
Karze
You might choose to ignore many Chinese’s calm debate here and many of those demonstrating on the street. The reason is your dislike or hate towards China.
You have no right to judge their patriotism. To you, patriotism is a positive word which should not apply to Chinese, right?
You need to adjust. Otherwise, the rest of your life will be in sadness watching China moving towards the reverse direction you have been wishing.
Pray harder.
lots of talk about patriotism(nationalism). u.s. and china are not so different. we have many violent nationalists who make war for their own edification. it is very refreshing to read chinese citizens who are brave enough to criticize the state of their lot in china.
Kneecap wrote:”You took an interesting `spin` on these reactions. Firstly, you label these bloggers as an envious, bitter minority when you say: `so much bitterness here from the select few Chinese who are obviously upset or maybe simply envious.` I`d like to argue instead that perhaps these bloggers are in fact representative of a much larger minority who found these protests embarassing.”
Kneecap, I think you are doing some good spinning yourself for someone who doesn’t appear to read the Chinese forums often. If you actually can, or be bothered to read comments and other posts in the same site, you will be able to learn that the “bloggers” who wrote the quoted comments and their supporters think all Chinese who migrated to the west are either kids of corrupt government officials or dirty capitalists. If that is not envy and bitterness I don’t know what is. If you think these “bloggers” represent a larger minority of bloggers who find these protests embarrassing, then I would like you give me the evidence of that. In fact, I wonder just how many non-translated Chinese forums do you even read.
“I would also argue that the majority of these protests are comprised of overseas students, not expats in the sense that they are Korean, Japanese, American, British or French citizens (or permenant residents).”
At this point I would like to comment that you are not very good at arguments and are easily swayed by confirmation bias. I was at the SF rally and I can assure that many of us are US citizens who graduated from the top universities with good jobs, taking a day off to support our heritage and ancestral land’s accomplishments. The pro-Olympic protests are upsetting the “locals” you say? Why we are the locals. While this will surely dismay some racists who believe that Americans must be black or white, 20% of SF are Chinese Americans! Now, if you would like to still argue that we are not “locals” again I would like to see you to provide some evidence.
“Quite contrary to your belief that these protests are fueling Chinese influence overseas they are, in my opinion, creating grounds for tighter control on the amount of Chinese students allowed into foreign countries and even more frighteningly, encouraging anti-Chinese sentiment.”
I recall reading SF Gate comments on the coverage of the SF Rally. It’s difficult not to notice the repeated questionings of whether 2nd, 3rd, or even older generations of American Chinese are truly loyal to America, or are even Americans at all. They can’t be US citizens, they must be exchange students! Many even suggested that Chinese Americans should be interned like the Japanese during WWII. Is this kind of thinking familiar to you kneecap? While there are many racists out there who would hope for a tighter control of just about everyone from everywhere, reality will prove this to be difficult. In US Grad schools the foreign students population has been hovering between 40 to 50%. Chinese grad students represent the second largest body of grad students in US universities, behind India. After 9/11 US Universities have been lobbying the government to relax VISA rules so to combat the brain drain which will affect US’ competitiveness on the long run. Also, there is a strong correlation between education levels and income. Never mind the existing Chinese Americans whose education and income levels are already higher than most other groups, the Chinese exchange students in the US are well positioned to become next batch of model Americans as well. Statistically speaking, there is no more desirable candidate for citizenship than highly educated, highly skilled, and highly paid workers. The Chinese students whom many people hate fits this category nicely.
“Try going on YouTube and searching, `Torch relay violence Korea` and see what comes up. ”
I am not trying to defend the Chinese protesters, who have been mostly civil if you would add up all the people from both sides who were actually arrested in the protests, but if you want to talk about Youtube videos I can also ask you to look up videos of the Japanese/Tibetan kicking pro-China protesters in Japan, which I am sure your Japanese friends have told you about. In fact, we can argue all day long about which protesters behaved worse starting with videos of Tibetans gang beating Chinese, and Tibetan man harassing the wheelchaired lady in France. Pot calling kettle black is not going to get us anywhere.
Instead, I can say tell you that I am very happy to know the Chinese students who assaulted the Korean man will be arrested and deported, as I believe that people should take responsibilities for their own actions. I am also ashamed of what they had done in their host countries. Now, can you say you feel the same for the Tibetans during the riot and Japanese/Tibetan during the Nagano torch relay?
hm, very interesting, rumor has it that the Chinese student (could be Korean Faker) gets deported. How come the tibetan man who harrased Jin Jing in public three times, pulling her hair, and trying to snatch the torch from her,was NOT deported????????????????????????????????????
What about the people who threw rocks/stones etc pro-China supporters eh???????????????????????????????
Korea is a racist country. Korea is very thankful for U.S.A splitted it in half, too bad U.S.A tried to split Vietnam, but failed – tough luck!!!!
To all the dear friends from China,
It’s our great honor to have you join this interesting discussion. It would be even greater if you can provide evidence when you make a claim about “the majority of Chinese” or when you accuse someone attacked pro-China people. Thanks.
ur chinese friend>>
See, now that post was much more rational than your first one. Admittedly, I can’t read Chinese but there are a fair amount of Chinese posting in English or sites like this that translate from Chinese into English, that I try to at least get as fairly a balanced viewpoint as possible.
Excuse my bias, but when I’ve repeatedly heard evidence in a variety of media outlets (spanning from London, to SF, to Nagano, to Seoul) that the respective consulates of these areas are encouraging overseas students (who by my understanding, aren’t allowed to take part in political rallies anyways) to “be patriotic”, I’m going to at least ASSUME a large portion of these protestors are overseas students. I never said they were ALL overseas students and I’m sure there’s a sizeable contingent of Chinese-Americans/Britons/French etc there as well. However, I would be interested to see which of those two groups comprised the majority. In most of the pictures I’ve seen in western media, and in the pro-China videos on YouTube or the antiCNNs, the vast majority of protestors are younger, which would confirm the idea that they’re University aged. As for whether they’re Chinese students, well, I’m going to go with the evidence I have before me, which suggests they are, until I can find evidence to the contrary. If you’re in possession of such evidence, I’ll gladly study it and if it seems legit, I’m not above apologizing and retracting what I’ve said.
Again let me clarify, I’m not disagreeing that some protestors are Chinese-American. I just think they’re a minority.
You think Chinese students are the next model Americans? Hmmm…? What percentage of those graduates are staying in America and starting careers in America vs. those that return home?
Of course you’re going to have people saying what they will about Chinese-Americans loyalty to their country. I don’t know where you read those comments, but it’s quite typical of any nationality or ethnic group to make racially-charged statements when they have the anonymity of a newspaper or the internet to hide behind. It’s disgusting and I don’t agree with it at all. But I digress, I guess you were agreeing with me at this point? I don’t see anything wrong with Chinese or Chinese-Americans expressing their support for the Olympics in China, but as soon as they turn violent or start bullying people from opposing points of view, they’re not doing their cause any favor.
I’m not the pot calling the kettle black. The Tibetan protestors’ actions were deplorable. And yes, I did see the Japanese kicking the Chinese student in the face (but there’s a whole different story behind that, I’d suggest you look up the Japanese Uyoku “右翼”). I don’t support violent protest of any kind. But when I read your initial post and you said “certain Chinese student in Korea beating up a Korean local during the torch relay” then went on to suggest this post is misleading without the context, it brought your whole argument into question for me. What happened in Korea went FAR beyond one student beating up one Korean. While we should condemn the actions of pro-Tibetan protestors who use violence, I haven’t seen much evidence suggesting their actions have been done en masse. They have instead been the actions of small groups or individuals. Keep in mind the pro-Tibet camp is outnumbered 10 to 1 at most of these protests. But what I saw in Korea, was large groups of Chinese students attacking any camp that was protesting the China government.
Perhaps Tibet is a sensitive issue. But explain the attacks in Korea on those who were protesting China’s treatment of North Korean refugees. And again, the consulate comes under criticism for encouraging students to partake in the rallies. And now the government is coming under pressure to tighten controls on Chinese students allowed into Korea.
Cheers.
p.s. “At this point I would like to comment that you are not very good at arguments and are easily swayed by confirmation bias.”
While I think you are quite articulate, stating the opposing side is simply “weak at arguing” is indictive of weak minds. I’m not attacking you personally, and I’d appreciate the same respect.
Kneecap:
I can’t speak for people that were at the torch relay in Korea or Japan, but I can tell you that the vast majority of the people that showed up in San Francisco, on the 9th, in support of the torch and Beijing Olympics were people from the greater bay area and the Silicon Valley. Many of those had to take a day off from work to show their support.
The same was true on the 26th of April, when ~ 3000 – 5000 Chinese-Americans from both sides of the straits showed up in San Francisco branch of the CNN office to protest what they perceived as media bias. Don’t be surprised if you haven’t heard of this one. It wasn’t covered by any English speaking TV Station or Newspapers (not even the SF Chronicle). It got to make you wonder why, right?
Although I do tend agree with “ur chinese friend” about you having a sort of “confirmation bias”, it may not be entirely your fault. You think the Chinese media is bad. Take a look at our own. You can google the SF CNN protest and see how many hits you get. And make sure not to confuse it with the LA CNN protest on the 19th.
Also, you sound like an intelligent person. So, think about the plausibility that the Chinese Government is this incredible monolith that has absolute control over its citizens even when they are abroad. While you are at it, why stop with the students. Why not the entire Chinese Diaspora? Or do they just not care?
Best
Kain
There are two general methods to control human beings’ behavior: Moral values and Laws.
Laws, is rather simple. Black and white. In principle, same rules apply to everyone.
Moral values are not. Depending what culture you are from. Western culture is more individual and Asian is more collectivism. Therefore, difference in culture will result in different moral value.
What does it mean? It implies that it is not always fair to use your moral values to judge others, no matter how holy you think your God or Godess are.
So, how to deal with it? The easiest way is to use laws. Laws should be above all the moral values in principle.
For those Chinese students who took aggressive actions during the torch relay, it is pretty simple that there is a law to apply. Do according to the law, use legal actions to find the resolution. That will satisfy all.
It is pointless to argue whether they are right or wrong. And, clearly, they fought because they thought they were right.
By the way, history repeats itself. It is all about economic resource competition. Moral values could be excuses at all. For those unaware of the 1840 war in China, it was about free trade war including selling opium in China. Chinese really learned it a hard way.
It is all about business, kids.