After the London blasts, Jeff Jarvis said he is not sure if the Western world is dealing with the problem of terrorism directly. However, he thinks that Tom Friedman has made it clearer when he said, “it's a Muslim problem, it needs a Muslim solution.” Humoud Abu-Talib, writing for Al-Watan daily, has quoted these words of Friedman:
Either the Muslim world begins to really restrain, inhibit and denounce its own extremists – if it turns out that they are behind the London bombings – or the West is going to do it for them. And the West will do it in a rough, crude way – by simply shutting them out, denying them visas and making every Muslim in its midst guilty until proven innocent.
Abu-Talib wrote: “It is sad that Friedman said ‘every Muslim in its midst guilty until proven innocent’, and it seems that this is what is going to happen.” He also blames the British authorities for being indulgent with the extremists. Abdul Rahman al-Rashed expressed the same idea. “Not only are they admitted to the country, they are also provided with accommodation, a monthly salary, and free legal advice for those who want to prosecute the British government,” he wrote for the English edition of Asharq al-Awsat.
Abu-Talib thinks that what happened will open the gates of hell on Muslims, especially Arab Muslims. “Muslims in Europe will pay the price for the idiocy of lunatics who commit crimes in the name of Islam.”
Is it a Muslim problem so Muslims have to solve it themselves, or is it a global problem and the whole world is responsible to find the solution?
51 comments
Why were my earlier comments removed? Censorship? Cmon.
Anthony, can you tell me what comment was removed and what post you were commenting on?
We’ve tried very hard not to remove comments, except when commenters post the same comment to multiple threads. It’s possible that a) you commented and it was held for moderation, or that b) it moved during our site redesign. If you can tell me a bit more about it, I can try to figure out what’s going on.
Here is an article from the NYT that speaks reasonably. I posted it on my site since the NYT is a subscribers only site.
http://mabb.blogspot.com/2005/07/here-is-article-i-think-it-speaks-for.html
Should we not make a distinction between the aspirations of Islam as a faith and what Muslims do? In the same way that we make a distinction between the idea of democracy and what happens in practice? Why are a different set of standards applied to the aspirations of Muslims and another to “non-Muslims”?
Again, I find all these accusations with nothing to support them amazing. There are people on this thread who seem to think they have done their civic duty by simply making an accusation. Can people not take the trouble of backing up their statements with references? Or perhaps that’s too much trouble? It makes me think that the reason people make such statements is not because they care but because it’s entertaining to level accusations and effectively slander a culture and a people.
I’m saddened to see that this level of discourse.
If you have criticisms of Islam please make them. Being demeaning is not a criticism. It’s simply irresponsible and juvenile.
So to be specific:
“All the PC talk does not relive us of the fact that those who are killing innocents are not Christmas Catholics.” – so tell us, who is killing innocents?
“Islam is both a religion of violence and of peace, no? I would never say soley one or the other, for the Koran exhorts its follower to both. But what is telling is the Muslims always want to deflect the attention away from their shortcomings or criticism of Islam to other subjects, and say “SEE!”.”
Sorry? What do you mean by that? Is democracy not a politics of violence and peace? Is the State not the primary vehicle for violence in the 20th century? Is it not the primary vehicle for peace? So what?
As for “Muslims always want to deflect…” so you’re accusing 1 billion people of a collective actions which they do “always” – gimme a break. 1 billion people don’t do anything collectively, let alone what you suggest. Do you have any evidence for this “always deflecting” behaviour? Do you know about the conversations and dialogues going on within the Islamic world about change? Do you care?
“Force was used for well over one hundred years there by Europeans. Yet, they don’t exhibit the same problems.”
Amazing! In one sweep every single act of violence committed by European powers has been swept away – everything from the genocide against aboriginals to the invention of the concentration camp to the Final Solution to Apartied to the Congo! They don’t exhibit the same problems is right. The fact that the European and US powers are responsible for mass genocide over hundreds of years means that their problems are somewhat more serious – at least in my mind. The end of the world is not going to come from a handful of Islamic terrorists killing 3000 people believe me – it’s going to come from the West doing it’s thing, be that invading another country, deploying tactical nukes in an attempt to gain control of oil or simply through a mistake. The Islamic world does not have the capacity to destroy the world – at least not when compared to the West.
I personally feel quite proud of the Islamic response to colonialism, which is basically that you won’t get away with it.
“I’m trying to think of how many other religions say that God’s only messenger commands the decapitation of all, well…nonadherants and have a large curved sword as their insignia?”
All this is news to me. What is your evidence?
MUHAMMED’S DECAP RECAP:
Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”
Tabari VIII:179 “Abdallah bin Sa’d fled to Uthman, his brother, who after hiding him, finally surrendered him to the Prophet. Uthman asked for clemency. Muhammad did not respond, remaining silent for a long time. Muhammad explained, ‘By Allah, I kept silent so that one of you might go up to him and cut off his head!’ One of the Ansar said, ‘Why didn’t you give me a sign?’ Allah’s Apostle replied, ‘A prophet does not kill by pointing.’”
Ishaq:369 “Thereupon Mas’ud leapt upon Sunayna, one of the Jewish merchants with whom his family had social and commercial relations and killed him. The Muslim’s brother complained, saying, ‘Why did you kill him? You have much fat in you belly from his charity.’ Mas’ud answered, ‘By Allah, had Muhammad ordered me to murder you, my brother, I would have cut off your head.’ Wherein the brother said, ‘Any religion that can bring you to this is indeed wonderful!’ And he accepted Islam.”
Ishaq:304/Tabari VII:62 “I cut off Abu Jahl’s head and brought it to the Messenger. ‘O Allah’s Prophet, this is the head of the enemy of Allah.’ Muhammad said, ‘Praise be to Allah.’”
Tabari VII:97/Ishaq:368 “We carried Ka’b’s head and brought it to Muhammad during the night. We saluted him as he stood praying and told him that we had slain Allah’s enemy. When he came out to us we cast Ashraf’s head before his feet. The Prophet praised Allah that the poet had been assassinated and complimented us on the good work we had done in Allah’s Cause. Our attack upon Allah’s enemy cast terror among the Jews, and there was no Jew in Medina who did not fear for his life.’”
Ishaq:464 “The Jews were made to come down, and Allah’s Messenger imprisoned them. Then the Prophet went out into the marketplace of Medina, and he had trenches dug in it. He sent for the Jewish men and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in batches. They numbered 800 to 900 boys and men.” Tabari VIII:40 “The Messenger commanded that furrows should be dug in the ground for the Qurayza. Then he sat down. Ali and Zubayr began cutting off their heads in his presence.”
Tabari VIII:38 “The Messenger of Allah commanded that all of the Jewish men and boys who had reached puberty should be beheaded. Then the Prophet divided the wealth, wives, and children of the Banu Qurayza Jews among the Muslims.”
Tabari VIII:122/Ishaq:515 “The Prophet gave orders concerning Kinanah to Zubayr, saying, ‘Torture him until you root out and extract what he has. So Zubayr kindled a fire on Kinanah’s chest, twirling it with his firestick until Kinanah was near death. Then the Messenger gave him to Maslamah, who beheaded him.”
A BRIEF SAMPLING OF MUHAMMED’S ZULFIKAR SWORD EMBLEM
On Saudi Arabian flag (home of Mecca and Medina) along with the inscription “There is no [other] god but God [‘Allah’], Mohammed is His Messenger” http://www.theodora.com/flags/saudi_arabia_flags.html
Some depictions of Muhammed’s actual sword: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t51084.html
And of others like it: http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=1088
Some history on Muhammed’s Zulfikar Sword emblem:http://www.allstates-flag.com/fotw/flags/tr-zulf.html
Why the Iranians (Persians) took the Islamic Sword off their flag: http://hammihan.20fr.com/articles/flag.html
Muhammed’s sword, “Zulfikar”, means “cleaver of the spine”. http://www.behindthename.com/php/view.php?name=zulfikar
“The Islamic world does not have the capacity to destroy the world – at least not when compared to the West.”
Zaid:
I submit to you that the West, i.e., the US, has used nuclear weapons only when it had to defend itself from the Imperial Japanese who, along with the rest of the Axis, came close to defeating the world.
But what happens when Islam and its prophet’s self proclaimed intent to vanquish the non-Muslim world http://www.prophetofdoom.net/quotes1.html#fighting
becomes armed with sufficient WMD’s to do so?
Mutually Assured Destruction used to be a tool to keep peace, or at least a stalemate against a nuclear Armageddon, using the presumed survivalist instincts of the principal nations.
But when you hear the Koran talking about devine destruction, mutilation, treachery and ascension to heaven through martyrdom and when you see that plan being applied systematically across the world, the security of Mutually Assured Destruction as a deterrent vanishes.
So it is my assessment that Islam’s suicidal contempt for world peace has brought the world far closer to preemptive nuclear and WMD attacks than the long-existing weapons themselves have.
As I cannot imagine risking Islam’s acquisition of the capability the West has long contained, I would sadly anticipate such a preemptive strategy to surface beforehand, as we have already begun to see.
I’m just a layperson, not terribly well-versed in religion and politics, but here in the US, we have a group of politically powerful people called Dominionists or Christian Reconstructionists. They advocate a Christian theocracy in which all non-Christians would have their civil rights revoked, and in which the death penalty would be brought in for all manner of “crimes”, such as pre-marital sex (applies only to women), adultery, etc. They support, at least in their rhetoric, the firebombing of women’s health clinics where abortions are performed and the targetted killing of abortion doctors. One of their most powerful representatives has weekly phone conferences with Dubya and Rove. [http://www.harpers.org/SoldiersOfChrist.html and http://www.harpers.org/FeelingTheHate.html and http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/DirectoryRiseOfDominionismInAmerica.html%5D. Obviously, Islam is not the only religion in which there are extremists who are using their religious ideology to excuse the inexcusable.
It seems to me that Muslims and Christians both have a duty to stand up against the extremists and say, “No, actually, we’re not afraid of being painted as not being “true” believers, or of being unpatriotic. You are not welcome in our religious communities.” But it’s not just about that. There will always be some people who will espouse extremism, and some who will always just be thugs looking for the cover of a legitimate cause. But it’s true that repression, poverty, and governmental corruption – all perfectly legitimate grievances – do get used to pull in the lost, the angry, the unstable, and the despairing. It may be in part a Muslim problem, but it’s not JUST a Muslim problem, it’s a global problem.
Kaz
Since you say you aren’t well versed in any religious source material behind the statements you make, can you even find any cited authority in the Harpers Magazine article assertion that
“‘a number of influential figures advocate the death penalty for a host of “moral crimes,” including apostasy, blasphemy, sodomy, and witchcraft.'” ?
I can’t. Though it would not surprise me to hear someone coming up with any kind of beliefs that deviate completely from any Christian doctrines that have ever come to my attention in my Protestant and Catholic upbringing and schooling, (before I became a Zen Buddhist) I have really not heard of this yet. So when the author says “a number” advocates this, it cries out for a little more substantiation, don’t you think? There are a lot of numbers and a lot of shades of advocacy.
I would point out however, that all of these crimes are currently and routinely met with the death penalty in the many Islamic government courts established throughout the world.
So to try and equivocate the threat of these two religions when only one has many factions admittedly and starkly at war with us, committing daily atrocities in its global scourge of wars based on hard scriptural authority, procuring WMDs for the most violent people and intolerant mindsets, I think you are being rather ineffective in an apparent aim to nullify these real crimes and threats against us by distracting away from them.
Your “Dubyah and Rove” linkups with these purportedly imminent horrors seem telling of the level of authentication, or lack therof, which you seem willing to indulge.
So nice try. If you come up with anything that remotely approaches the Mulsim prophet and his followers’ vows to destroy all non-Muslims combined with the commencement of actual combat against innocents indisciminately on every continent by legions of suicidal warriors, you will let us know, won’t you?
Kaz PS
If you can make a connection between any recognizable organization and the abortion clinic firebombings and assassinations you link them to, I would think that there would be some interest in your theroies by the attorney generals and private lawyers who have successfully gone after those kinds of terrorists with death sentences and huge RICO penalties.
Rufus, one quick question before I respond. Where did you get your quotes from the Koran from?